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Matt discusses how isolating and difficult an LDS mission can be for a missionary who endures rejection many times a day. We encourage Christians to befriend missionaries and engage in respectful and critical conversation. He alludes to some odd happenings in his LDS mission before his time there (the same mission Mitt Romney served in) when several missionaries eventually followed a counselor to the French Mission president into the LeBaron polygamy group in Mexico. 



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The Wilders interview Dr. Matthew Eklund, raised LDS in northern Utah. He was baptized at age 10, active on and off during his teen years, Matt eventually desired to receive a testimony of the Book of Mormon. He decided that if he received one, he would serve an LDS mission. The LDS prophet challenged all church members to read the Book of Mormon in 2005. Matt took the challenge, felt a kind of peace, believing this to mean the Book of Mormon was true, so Joseph Smith must have been a prophet of God, and the LDS Church must be the one true church. He served an LDS mission in Belgium, never really questioning his LDS faith. Listen to the next episodes to find out how and why Matt left Mormonism and found Jesus. Dr. Eklund holds a PhD in Nuclear Engineering and Science.



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Anna continues to share her story of validating and highlighting the concerns she began to have about the Mormon faith. She compared verses from the Bible and Mormon scripture, did internet research,  and dug into apologetics. Struggling with what to believe, where true faith was, and holding on to the romantic relationship that she longed for, she continued to study. Rejoice with Anna as she shares answers to prayer and the peace and joy she has finally found in Jesus!



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Anna Banister was raised in a biblical Christian family but drawn away from her faith to Mormonism through a relationship with an LDS man and his family. The Latter-day Saints taught her that the more persecution she received for pursuing Mormonism, the more she could know that she was choosing the right path. Opposition from biblical Christians was a confirmation Mormonism was true.

Anna says she thought Mormonism was giving her control over her own salvation. She was searching, hoping that Mormonism would be true and she was excited about having a forever family. Most of her questions were answered by the LDS missionaries and she was told that the more that she believed the more would be revealed to her.

Podcast co-host Joel Groat reminds us that faith is having Jesus as the object of your faith. Faith may have you go beyond reason but will never have you go against reason.



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In the book, Responding to the Mormon Missionary Message, Paul addresses LDS Missionary Lesson 3 called, The Gospel of Jesus Christ, from the missionary manual Preach My Gospel. For LDS, eternal life includes doing: faith, repentance, water baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost given by LDS priesthood, and various laws kept and temple ordinances performed as well as enduring to the end to try to reach the highest heaven (Celestial Kingdom). There is no assurance of eternal life in this life in the LDS gospel. Paul brings up some great questions. If LDS argue today their salvation is by grace, then what is the function of the LDS temple? Can anyone go in or do you have to do something to qualify? The Reformation came about when the Catholic Church offered the paying of indulgences for special privileges. Since tithing is required to enter an LDS temple where ordinances are required to strive to reach the highest LDS heaven, isn’t this practice similar to what the reformers fought against? Staircases and ladders? Another difference between the LDS gospel and the gospel of the Bible is that the LDS Holy Ghost leaves someone when they sin, although his role is supposed to give one the strength to obey the commandments. But, how can a Latter-day Saint have the help of the Holy Ghost to strive to reach the Celestial Kingdom if he abandons them when they sin? Isn’t that when one needs him the most? Paul discusses the LDS Holy Ghost’s lack of omnipresence in Episode 46 of the Outer Brightness Podcast. His chapter in the book gives a number of dos and don’ts for witnessing to missionaries and offers scriptures they may use to teach the LDS gospel.



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After his mission, Paul poured into books and journals like the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies that supposedly demonstrated evidence for the Book of Mormon. He found there wasn’t really any. Looking online for a good LDS spouse, he met Angela, a new convert from the Cincinnati area. Paul soon moved to the Cincinnati area, found work, and married her in the temple. While working in health insurance, Paul tried to convert Charlotte to the LDS Church. She later returned the Book of Mormon to him and gave him a stack of papers her pastor had given her with reasons to question the LDS faith. Paul read them, began researching the various topics, and his “shelf broke.” Now not sure he even believed in God, Paul decided to simply focus on Christ but remain LDS. While driving, he began to listen to Christian radio hosts such as J. Vernon McGee, David Jeremiah, and Chip Ingram and tried to reconcile their teachings with Mormonism. He says his wonderful Christian father-in-law patiently “poured into him." Then, Paul secretly read In Sacred Loneliness about the plural wives of Joseph Smith. Angela read it as well, her shelf broke, and she longed to return to the grace-filled relationship she had known with Jesus in the evangelical church before she joined the LDS. Paul was ready. His first experience worshipping in an evangelical church made the differences between LDS and traditional Christianity palpable. Jesus was clearly the focus; Joseph Smith was not part of it. Paul was baptized unto Jesus in August of 2011 and then baptized his own son. Find him as co-host on the Outer Darkness Podcast.



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Paul Nurnberg returned from his LDS mission (1997-1999) to Hungary with questions. Several Christians he met on his mission showed him that what he preached was a system of works, not compatible with saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as the New Testament taught. Ephesians 2:8-9 especially impacted Paul and he recognized this was different than what he had always understood the gospel to be. Paul came home dreaming of one day becoming an archaeologist who would find the evidence to prove to the world that the Book of Mormon and the LDS gospel was true, but was it?



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Corey Miller, former LDS now Christian CEO of Ratio Christi, explains that statistically there are more believers in Jesus in the basic and fundamental sciences like math and physics than in the social sciences. Smart people do believe. Discussion touches on evidences for the reliability of the Bible. Corey recommends the book In Defense of the Bible. We refer listeners to the final chapter in our book Leaving Mormonism: Why Four Scholars Changed their Minds for reasons to believe in God and to believe His Word. Corey reminds Lynn of a debate they did together with LDS apologist James Holt on Unbelievable Radio on November 24, 2017. Jesus is the answer to the human condition.



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Proverbs 21.16 says those wander from logic/sound reason will rest in the assembly of the dead. Jesus declares Himself the Logos (Greek word for logic). Therefore, God is love but God is also logic, the fountainhead of rationality. Faith is reasonable. Today’s discussion with Corey Miller, former LDS now biblical Christian and CEO of the apologetics organization RatioChrist, emphasizes the fact that Christianity is a KNOWLEDGE Tradition. It was Christians who first launched the U.S. universities. However, since 1930, the universities have been largely ruled by nonbelievers in Jesus. “As goes the universities, so goes the culture. As goes the U.S. universities, so goes the world,” states Miller. So, Christians created their own universities: Biola, Moody, etc. For those under 40 today, there exist 23 liberals to each one conservative. Find Corey’s article on how to reclaim the universities for Christ here: https://www.equip.org/articles/how-we-lost-the-universities-how-to-recla...



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This is Part 2 with the authors of the book Responding to the Mormon Missionary Message, Corey Miller and Ross Anderson. Ross explains that although the LDS missionary manual Preach My Gospel was recently updated, none of the content has changed. When meeting with LDS missionaries, this book will prepare you in advance for what they will teach and give a biblical response. Learning the LDS gospel may help Christians understand the biblical gospel and be better able to articulate our own relationship with the living Jesus. Corey says we have 2 ears and one mouth for a reason—listen to the LDS! Five LDS may give 6 differing opinions on their beliefs. Respond to an individual’s beliefs. Ask questions. In addition to Miller and Anderson’s contributions, this book contains chapters from 6 former LDS missionaries now biblical Christians who also describe their experiences with Christians on their LDS missions, telling what Christians may have said or done that impacted them personally. Ross reminds us to testify to the reality and intimacy of our relationship with Jesus.



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Responding to the Mormon Missionary Message is an excellent new book that covers exactly what LDS missionaries are directed to teach their investigators from their manual called Preach My Gospel. The authors, Corey Miller and Ross Anderson, explain the LDS culture (persecution-sensitive) and the LDS testimony (“Don’t confuse me with facts, I have a feeling”) as a foundation for understanding the LDS people. Then, the book gives biblical responses to each of the missionary teachings. We see this book as invaluable to Christians with a heart to witness the biblical gospel to LDS missionaries telling truth in love.



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MacKenzie encourages Christians: it’s ok not to have all the answers for LDS friends and missionaries. Simply tell them, that's a great question. I’ll research that and get back to you. This past year, MacKenzie has helped an LDS woman, Janet, in her transition from LDS faith to biblical understanding. She says at first Janet had an anxious emotional response after discovering how different LDS teachings were from biblical teachings. She needed just to be heard--to process what she was learning out loud--in a safe place with supportive friends. 



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MacKenzie Jones is a young Christian woman who witnessed to LDS missionaries for 3 solid years by inviting them into her apartment, feeding them popcorn and water, playing board games with them, and discussing Scripture—both sisters and elders. She shares that she learned her own faith better through those years of getting to know the LDS and their faith. MacKenzie encourages Christians to step into conversations with LDS missionaries by simply asking questions and sharing Bible Scripture IN CONTEXT. Stick with the Bible. Love and respect them. Do not try to prove them wrong, she says. They are just kids. We discuss specific passages of Scripture LDS missionaries often bring up (they use the King James Version of the Bible) whose clarity comes through context.



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The LDS church was studying the Old Testament. The LDS teaching that Eve’s taking of the fruit in the garden was a “fall upward” disturbed Brad. He knew that God wanted relationship with man and that Eve’s choice created a separation between God and man. When the LDS OT manual got to the part about the tabernacle, Brad knew the symbolism of the tabernacle and later the temple pointed to Jesus and that when Jesus died on the cross, there was no more need for a temple (Matt 27:51). Although while researching, he found information from ex-Mormon atheists online, Brad knew there was a God. So, when he came across the YouTube channel Hello Saints, he reached out to Pastor Jeff, who became a pastor to him as he struggled with his mom’s diagnosis of brain cancer and later cared for her. Although he felt peace after giving his mom an oil anointed LDS blessing, he felt the same peace when a Christian woman prayed for his mom without the oil. Brad’s mom, strong in her Christian faith, wrote a book before she died called, She Gave Me Carmel Apples (https://suevrooman.com/). After she passed, Brad dove into the Bible, using Christian commentaries and writing in the margins of his Bible; he decided the LDS gospel was way too complicated (see Romans 10:9-10). He gained an assurance his mom was in the presence of God without any LDS ordinances. His hand is not too short to save (Isaiah 59:1). Brad went to see Adam’s Road, stopped wearing his LDS garments and declared this decision brought healing. Brad is in the process of giving up his LDS membership; he found a supportive Christian community. He says the best way to describe what happened to him is simply: Jesus is enough.



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Brad joined the LDS church as a single man in his 30s when LDS missionaries knocked on his door. He sensed some things they taught were a little off according to his Christian upbringing but he put them aside because he saw good in the service the LDS people did for others. He did wonder why they kept asking him about his family. The first chink in his LDS faith happened when he fell behind in his tithing. He knew without it he could not go to the temple. He also wondered why the LDS “pulled out all the stops at Halloween but at Christmas, nothing.” He began to have serious questions about the LDS church when he recognized the extra-biblical teachings in the LDS lesson manual he was asked to use to teach the LDS faith to prisoners in prison ministry. He also was thoroughly confused about the differences between the LDS explanation of the events in the Garden of Eden and the Bible’s telling of them.



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A second miracle occurred in Brad’s Mom’s life (see the book She Gave Me Carmel Apples). Although she had been adopted as an infant in a closed adoption, God supernaturally connected his mother with her birth mother. Reconciliation and healing flowed for them. Brad wanted healing, too, but never really shared his sexual, drinking, or spiritual battles in a way or place that brought the deep healing he sought. He was placed in rehab and kicked the alcohol habit but was bitter about anything spiritual. Then one of the counselors challenged Brad to get up early each morning and just feed the birds. He began to reconnect with God through nature. Mike reminds us we all sin every day and quotes 1 John 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Starting over in a new city, the LDS missionaries soon knocked on Brad’s apartment door…



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Brad was an only child born to a single mom, Catholic, living in public housing. When Brad was in elementary school, both he and his mother chose the simple gospel of grace. Brad had heard it through The Wordless Book by Charles Spurgeon and accepted Jesus at a Bible Club. His mom prayed with a pastor’s wife and was immediately and miraculously healed from a cigarette addiction. At 14, Brad attended a Christian training program on a college campus to learn to teach the gospel in a Bible Club like he had learned it. But there, his older roommate sexually assaulted him several times. During college and after, feeling broken, Brad struggled with drinking and lived the gay lifestyle for about 10 years, questioning whether he was truly saved. Today, he said he clings to the promise in Acts 13:39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.



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Gayle encourages LDS to study and learn—about LDS history, Joseph’s life, and how the Bible contradicts LDS teachings. She tells two profound experiences where she felt God was directing her, just recently, into Christian ministry. To do what? To combat legalism. If you are in Christ, you have a ministry. The LDS church teaches in their Third Article of Faith, “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by the laws and ordinances of the [LDS] Gospel.” To a Bible-believing Christian, salvation by one’s own works in any measure constitutes legalism and negates salvation by grace. Eventually, Gayle’s entire family left the LDS church—except for one sister. Even her parents gave their lives to the biblical Jesus. Scriptures addressed in this episode: Romans 10:9, John 5:24, and Revelation 12:11.



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Gayle and the Wilders discuss what the Bible says about how one becomes born again or saved. Gayle’s mom was generational LDS; her father was a convert to the LDS Church out of the Baptist Church. Of their 6 children, one was a traditional Christian, the other 5 were LDS. That traditional Christian sister took 16-year-old LDS Gayle to a Christian revival in New Mexico where she was so overwhelmed by the Spirit, she went forward and gave her life to Jesus. Gayle was grateful for her one year at BYU where she realized the LDS prized their unique scriptures above the Bible. She left Mormonism and never looked back. Gayle encourages us to grab onto His garment, to grab onto Jesus alone.



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At the end of the last episode, Daniel delineated what he learned by attending Christian churches and reading the Bible about the changing nature of the LDS God compared to the Invisible God who never changes. He begins this episode by discussing the Holy Spirit. Daniel thought he might never feel the presence of the Holy Spirit in biblical Christian faith, but he was surprised. Some turning points in choosing biblical faith were: 1) being humbled and filled with the Holy Spirit while reading and understanding the book of Galatians, and 2) learning more about Joseph Smith (see the devotional that impacted him by Dr. Jayson Kunzler, BYU-Idaho business management faculty member at https://www.byui.edu/devotionals/jayson-kunzler). Daniel asked himself, "Do I follow Joseph Smith or the Jesus of the Bible?" Oddly, the third thing that changed his heart and mind was 3) reading the Book of Mormon, specifically Alma 5. When everything LDS was swept away, only faith in Christ remained. Daniel was amazed, how was it possible he was closer to God after leaving the LDS Church?! He felt so much joy and peace, gaining a deeper relationship with Jesus when leaving behind all that Joseph had added.


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